Cathy DeBuono Asks 'Is Gay the New Black?'

by Cathy DeBuono | Article Date: 11/09/2008 11:53 AM

Cathy compared the current fight for gay rights to the civil rights movement of the 60's and was told by her 20-year-old friend that we, as gays, had no business comparing our struggle to that of African Americans. This was her reply:

Is Gay the new Black?

Do we not get beaten for being gay?

Do we not get tortured and harassed and killed for being gay?

Have we not been stalked, hunted, lynched, abducted, tortured?

Have we not been ignored by law enforcement when we report these things?

Has any black person ever been thrown out of their own family for being black?

Has any black person ever been thrown out of their own church for being black?

Are we not the highest rate of minority suicide?

Do we not suffer more mental and emotional trauma due to self identity stress than any other minority?

Are we not wrongfully accused of sexual harassment simply for being gay?

Do we not hit glass ceilings, receive less respect, have fewer opportunities in certain careers?

Are we not grouped with pedophiles in peoples’ view?

Was being black ever recognized by The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders as a psychopathology?

Are we not feared as sexual deviants who will demoralize your family or self by association?

Do we not get asked to leave and/or kicked out of straight establishments?

Is it not illegal for us to adopt children?

When it is legal, are we not at the bottom of the list and over investigated?

Is not "gay sex" itself not illegal?

Are we not fired from military careers if we "tell"?

Is it not still perfectly legal to be fired in most places for being gay?

Is it not still legal to refuse to hire us for being gay?

Do we not get profiled and wrongfully harassed and arrested by the people who should be protecting us?

Do we not get blatantly asked to keep our true selves politely hidden so others shouldn't have to be offended by our presence?

Were black people raised in families that hated them for being black, that taught them to believe they were sick, unwanted, unloved and going to hell for being black?

Do black people have to, for the most part, experience all of this alone... without the support of their family & friends?

If you are in your 20's or younger, your generation missed out on a lot of what the rest of us were here for.

And my generation missed out on more than I had the good fortune to not be there for.

My point is this, black Americans have their struggle. We have ours.

I am not unsympathetic to their journey, I have studied it, I admire it, I have been inspired by it, and I stand with them.

But I, stand with us all. And it is OUR time to stand up and demand better. Demand it all.

No minority who suffers any of the fall out of inequality, no matter what their history, can proclaim that "no comparison" bullshit.

Did you know that during the holocaust -- there were concentration camps for gay people? Not just the Jews, but gay camps as well. Why is that never talked about?

Did you know that thousands and thousands and thousands of people have taken to the streets this week but every news piece says "a few hundred to a thousand or so?”

Did you notice that out of miles and miles and hours and hours of peaceful & lawful inspiring protests -- on the front page of the Los Angeles Times is a photo of one out of control protester? And the only person I saw -- out of thousands -- being pulled aside and interviewed on camera was a flamboyant, crass, foul-mouthed drag queen who appeared drunk in public and was spewing disrespectful rhetoric?

Why is this important? Because people don't know we exist. People believe we are stereotypes, people believe we are moral freaks, people do not know anything about us, and what is even sadder is that our own community knows so very little about itself… or its own history.

The history is there and not talked about, not handed down. We have not come together as a community to tell our stories, hand them down from generation to generation, instill them in our people’s blood.

Black Americans have that, I admire that. I mourn that for us. In fact, to most people we barely even exist.

Our history has been swept under the rug. Now it's time to make our own, hand it down among us and refuse to be marginalized any longer.

I have nothing but respect for our fellow oppressed minority groups -- but we need to stand as one, with each other and drop the bullshit competition for the right to carry the biggest cross. I don't want it. And anyone who needs to preach it is holding back the entire human race.

So once again, is Gay the new Black? Or can we all just be human now...

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sarahloo	view my profile
Sunday, November 9 2008 \| 13:08:17
Way to speak out
I have to say that this really struck me because as I was at the protest at one point last night, two very young black men were standing in the middle of the street yelling, "Yes on 8". I stopped in my tracks and stood there for a very long moment and just looked directly at these boys and really realized for the first time that if we do not continue to tell the story of this fight, it could get lost in the generations. These boys were able to stand in the street and vocalize thier opinion (although very ill-informed) precisley because of those ancestors that stood in that very street before them. They were blind to the whole canundrum. I looked at them very hard and with love. I waited until their eyes moved away first. And then I waited until they walked away. I felt that perhaps they couldnt handle the love I had for them in that moment, that they were not very used to compassion. I felt that my eyes said more in that moment than my words could ever have. I felt a unity that I cant explain, I felt hope for one-ness and connection. A negative became a strange positive in my mind. And that was all that mattered.

Chippy88	view my profile
Sunday, November 9 2008 \| 13:58:51
Excellent Subject
First I gotta say...holy shit sarahloo that was deep! And Cathy, thanks for dragging this subject out from the dark corner we're trying to avoid. I’ve been riled up ever since reading that one chick’s article in the LA times. I think drawing parallels between the two civil rights movements is useful. It is unfortunate when comparisons seem to bring out judgment as to the degree in which a group is oppressed. It’s like it confuses people and the issue. Ay ay ay ay! Civil rights is about equal rights for everyone is it not? It’s like there’s this mindset that folks can’t join in the defense of one group’s struggle until theirs is completely fixed. We can have more than one struggle going on at a time. I’ve done my share of hitting the streets on other people’s behalf. Guess I need to wear my “I love the Indigo Girls” t shirt next time so they know I’m there lol.

pawsible	view my profile
Sunday, November 9 2008 \| 14:26:23
Awesome!
Very nice. I am going to share this with all my straight and gay friends. It is important for us to all stand together and work together. We are all human beings who deserve compassion and appreciation , if nothing else.

Jenny	view my profile
Sunday, November 9 2008 \| 15:39:13
Prolific words Ms. DeBuono
This is a hard subject and everyone must tread carefully, as you just did. We don't deny that blacks had their struggles, why do some of them deny us ours? I'm disheartened by that attitude and I certainly don't understand it. Thank you for your graceful words, you spoke about something that I haven't dare mention because I was afraid I was the only one that felt that way. You are a shining example, keep the chin up and keep on fighting the good fight.

Lezliemac	view my profile
Sunday, November 9 2008 \| 16:41:11
How do we fight
ignorance and fear ? By being visible, loud, resilient but respectful, even if it requires all our energy to keep our cool. I wish I could I been there for the protests since I live in Europe, but will spread the word as best as I can. If anyone has ideas on how to do that, holla!

sarah	view my profile
Sunday, November 9 2008 \| 16:42:40
Yes!!!!
You state "but we need to stand as one, with each other and drop the bullshit competition for the right to carry the biggest cross". That, in those few words is exactly it....the principle of the whole thing. I'm not going to compete for title of most opressed either, that doesn't mean that I don't know that I am opressed. I work at a job where I have to hide my true self because if I didn't I would be fired. My family "tolerates" me, my friends don't want to talk with me about any of this, it makes them uncomfortable. I have to hide in my community and I'm certainly not welcomed at church as who I am, but rather as who they would like me to be. Guess what I'm tired of it, to the bone tired of it all and I don't think I'll be taking it anymore.

Fraga	view my profile
Sunday, November 9 2008 \| 18:27:02
Amazing
You are really inspiring. I, like you, are tired of having to hold back on behalf of those who might feel awkward. But I'm tired, as i live ina "don't ask, don't tell" family. I'm 26 yrs old, never taken anyone home. And I've been in a relationship for over 7 yrs, a Long Distance relationship, for that matter. My mom knows, and loves her "daughter-in-law", but the rest of my family refuses to aknowledge what is quite obvious. I'm told not to cut my hair short, cause I could look like a guy, I'm told to wear more skirts.I'm Mexican, I live in Mexico, and it is cool to be gay, as long as you're a tourist or stay in the Zona Rosa, but out of there it's not. So I'm quite tired too. And I just want to be human... that's all, just another human being

jodi	view my profile
Sunday, November 9 2008 \| 18:55:51
Let's just all be human
I like the sound of that.

akamamad	view my profile
Monday, November 10 2008 \| 06:02:12
This is OUR time
Inspiring article. We as a PEOPLE must stand together and let them know we will not go away!!! A people who extend civil liberties only to preferred groups start down the path either to dictatorship of the right or the left. -- Justice William O. Douglas

Kate	view my profile
Monday, November 10 2008 \| 06:47:57
Stonewall
I had to look it up online. I didn't remember all the details and I had to fucking look it up online. You are exactly right, there were many that came before that bled for this community. We don't remember them, we don't pass on their stories, we are not one as a community. I don't know if Gay is the new Black, but when I read that long list of wrongs perpetrated against us and remember my life and all the times I had to stay hidden, then I surely feel oppressed. As oppressed as Blacks have been in this country, I dunno, but I didn't realize it was a contest.

Umisayz	view my profile
Monday, November 10 2008 \| 11:01:18
I don't think so
To suggest that gay is the "new black" would suggest that being black no longer matters or has any relevance in society. Not even the election of Barack Obama could convince me of that. Black is black. Gay is gay. The point is not to engage in what me and my friends call the "Oppression Olympics", oddly competitive discussions about who had/has it worse, whose suffering is more pressing than whose, but to acknowledge the similarities between our struggles and to fight for everyone's right to equality under the law.

JrBetty	view my profile
Monday, November 10 2008 \| 11:17:34
Not a contest
I think the point is, or should be, as Umisayz said, "to acknowledge the similarities between our struggles and to fight for everyone's right to equality under the law." . Not any sort of contest. The point is to find our common ground so we can relate to each other. Of coarse there are big differences along with the similarities in our experiences. Thank you all for leaving your comments. I keep checking back to see what everyone is saying.

rubyshoes	view my profile
Monday, November 10 2008 \| 11:30:39
Wanda Sykes
Umisayz...Wanda Sykes has been calling gay the new black for over a year. She said it on Ellen and Leno last year. I'm just sayin.' I think the point is that it is still okay to openly discriminate against LGBT people -- and women, in my opinion -- but the time is well passed for legislating away rights based on race. It's obviously a metaphor.

SapphicDrivenLyfe	view my profile
Monday, November 10 2008 \| 13:53:40
EQUALITY . . .
Wow this took a turn since I last read the posts. I personally don’t feel that the use of the metaphor --whether used a year ago or last week is irrelevant, takes anything away from the black experience. Race is not what is being compared. Gays didn’t protest last week because of race. They protested based on the issue of EQUALITY. This article was so beautifully written and inspired by a conversation Cathy had with 20 year old friend not quite understanding the use of the metaphor either. Cathy’s friend was 12 years old when Bush took office. That in itself deserves pause because in those 8 years the tide turned in America. It brought fourth legions of persecutors baring their teeth, baring hate, baring injustice, most of all baring judgment all in the name of Christianity. Not that those components haven’t always been there, but this era was different. They not only had an ally, they had arguably the most powerful man of the free world leading their fight. God forbid two people of the same sex proclaim their love for one another on his watch! That hate wasn’t more menacing or ever more prevalent than at the GOP Republican Convention in 2004. It was terrifying to watch! I kept thinking this is the rise of fascism yet again, but this time in America. Our evolution stopped, and as long as we were being told we deserved less –we now had a president that was going to do everything in his power to see that we got less. None of us know the experience of being black unless we are, vice versa with gays. BUT blacks do take away something admirable that Cathy also mentioned and that is the extraordinary history that is passed on from generation to generation. Gays do not have that bridge that gaps the history component of what it means to be gay. We don’t pass it on. That part is rarely discussed, and it needs to be. Cathy you have not missed a beat ---ROCK ON BABE!

Kate	view my profile
Monday, November 10 2008 \| 14:58:31
Well said
I agree, the use of a metaphor in this case to someone who does not have the history of the struggle that gays have gone through is very appropriate. Cathy beautifully expressed that the black struggle is very timely and relevant.

Nomo	view my profile
Tuesday, November 11 2008 \| 13:04:49
Cathy, Cathy, Cathy. I used to like you. JK JK!!!
So Cathy, I'm black, I’m 25, I'm not gay, though I'm totally supportive of the gay community (lesbians in particular because all women rule!). Is gay the “new black?” I have to agree with your 20-something friend that the answer is “Absolutely 100% no.” I think the problem is in the wording, though, not necessarily your (or others’) intentions in making the comparison. You can compare the two struggles to advance your own, but when you try to equate them, you are unintentionally invalidating core differences between the black struggle and the gay rights struggle. And anything or anyone that invalidates any part of the black struggle, and I mean any part of the black struggle, will always be met with some form of animosity from African Americans, including your friend. You can compare the two struggles for equality, as that is essentially what they are, but they are not the same, regardless of any list you can draft listing similarities. After reading the end of your article/response to your friend, I don’t believe that you are trying to equate the two struggles. However, the question itself, “Is gay the ‘new black?’” and the questions you list in your article (e.g., “Was being black ever recognized by The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders as a psychopathology? Are we not feared as sexual deviants who will demoralize your family or self by association? Do we not get asked to leave and/or kicked out of straight establishments?”), in combination with the overall critical tone of your article, make it appear as though you are trying to equate the two, or, even worse, trying to suggest that gay discrimination is “worse” than the systematic, institutionalized racial discrimination African Americans have faced for the past 400 years. Doing that, Cathy, is precisely what hurts African Americans, including your friend. Why does it hurt? Because the black struggle (which btw still continues for those of you who may have gotten it twisted on Nov 4) is fundamentally different, the pervasiveness of racial discrimination is totally different, the social, political, economical, and, yes, legal effects of racial discrimination (i.e., Jim Crow) are different, and the history of racial discrimination is different. By equating them, you necessarily trivialize these differences. As a self-described student of the movement, I am sure you understand that people like me literally didn’t exist until colonials captured our West African ancestors, transported them across the globe, raped the women, and bred them like dogs. That’s why my skin is a shade of brown, not black. That’s why our surnames are Jackson, Smith, and Washington, not Kamau, Shakur, or Dawodu. We are truly beings borne from hate, as evidenced by the color of our skin, not the gender of our sexual partners. I can respond to each of the first 32 questions you ask if you truly seek responses. But the first question, and ultimately the last question, “Is gay the new black,” no. There will never, ever, be a “new black.” LGBT can acknowledge this and respect it, or LGBT can trivialize it by saying blacks have some twisted, immature desire to hold on to the “Most Oppressed” title or some other condescending response. LGBT surely cannot expect African Americans to push for gay rights, especially older blacks, if it chooses the latter. Instead of attempting to equate the black struggle with the gay struggle as a method of advancing LGBT rights, LGBT should address the underlying motive that drives both types of discrimination—an illegitimate fear of that which is different, ulteriorly justified by a warped interpretation of a few lines of antiquated Biblical text. Of course, African Americans and LGBT should come together to eradicate all hate, discrimination, and disenfranchisement. Blacks know all too well what it’s like to be socially ostracized. We still are. We have also been politically repressed and economically disenfranchised for generations. We still are. But the trivialization of the black struggle that necessarily follows from any attempt to equate the civil rights struggle with the gay rights struggle, no matter how politely disguised, simply does not serve LGBT's interest. With that said, GO CARDS! ;)

CathyDeBuono	view my profile
Tuesday, November 11 2008 \| 14:53:25
Nomo...
You ar doing precisely what you are preaching against. And you have lost track of my point. Breathe, and read it again. How does a list of bullet point facts "necessarily trivialize" your history? My list and argument is not that our history is the same. My point is we have our own history, we suffer own our injustices, and we can look to those groups who came before our movement for inspiratin and support. Not comparison and competition. Youstate: "LBGT surely cannot expect African Americans to push for gay rights..." erm.. why not? And I certainly most absolutely 100% do expect exactly that. Any American who will not stand up for the rights of any other American (regardless of the reason they are being oppresed), is selfish - and must believe their rights are moreimpotant. Period. End of story. There is no other excuse. Everyone deserves liberty, and freedom and equal right. Our black American brothers and sisters should know this better than anyone. My question "Is Gay the new Black" is a statement of repspect and a call to brotherhood, it is meant to prvoke thinking and hopefully the conclusion that no matter WHO it is, if they are't being treated we equally, WE ALL must stand up for one another. Take a breath Nomo, read it again. My point is we are all human, and doesn't that make any oppression unacceptable and why can't I expect every oppressed group to fight for my rights as well as their own.

Shadow	view my profile
Tuesday, November 11 2008 \| 17:33:28
It's not the comparison, but the message.
I'm completely new to this forum, having followed a link to this particular thread and signed up just so I could comment. Forgive me if I rant for a moment. I can actually see the merits of both sides of this argument. There are similarities in the way that blacks and gays have been treated in this country. However, I don't like the phrase "Gay is the new black." Probably because, while I know what it's like to be a lesbian, to be beaten because I'm a lesbian, I have no clue in the world what it's like to be black. I believe that, when we talk about oppression and discrimination, all oppressed groups have similar experiences in some ways. Exclusion, ostracization, physical injury, and social rejection; all of these can be part of the life of anyone who is part of a minority group. But despite these similarities, there are also differences. I don't know what it's like to have an ancestor who was a slave. I don't know what it's like to have a relative who died in the holocaust. I don't know what it's like to have a relative who died in the Armenian genocide. These are historical differences between oppressed groups, and while we can compare the emotions behind them, the pride and anger they inspire, we cannot, nor should we, compare the events themselves, and we absolutely should not compare them to our own experiences as gays and lesbians. For those of you who say that we can claim the holocaust as one of our experiences, I will certainly admit that gay men certainly died in prison camps in Nazi Germany, or were shot to death simply for being gay. Unlike the Jewish people of today, however, I doubt there are many of us that could name even one gay or lesbian that died in the Holocaust. Until we can, until we can say that we personally know the name and history of one such person, we cannot come close to knowing the life experience of a person of Jewish descent who can tell you of the previous generations of their family who were wiped out in those hideous years. I live in Los Angeles, and in the months and weeks before the election, my partner and I watched with growing trepidation as the leaders of the No on 8 campaign allowed the other side to frame the debate. We looked for outreach into minority communities and didn't see it. We watched to see our community presented as being human, and therefore worthy of the same rights as anyone else. And we never saw any of these things. Now people are blaming the black community for the passage of Proposition 8. I say, it's our own fault. I recognize that part of the black experience is a religious one. I realize that the church in the black community has played a tremendous role in helping to mobilize the people who went out and fought on the front lines of the black liberation movement. I have admired many black preachers who gave their congregations hope in times of sorrow and strength in times of crisis. I believe that some, Martin Luther King included, would stand shoulder to shoulder with us. Many today, however, will not, because it goes against their faith. They read the Bible as stating that homosexuality is wrong, and this forms a part of peoples belief. I will not argue with the faith of someone who believes. I will not insult them, nor their faith. I may want to sit down and have long philosophical discussions as to why I believe differently, but if they truly believe and live their belief, I will not argue with them. What I will do is let them know that I have no wish to change their faith. God-willing, that will change in time. What I will do is tell them what this struggle is really about -- the right to live free of discrimination. The right to hold hands with the one you love and not be stoned for it. The right to be at the bedside of the one you love, to help make decisions for their care, to share the love you feel for one another till the very last breath. It has nothing to do with their faith, and everything to do with love. This is the message we need to take to the black churches. We don't have their experience, we are not the 'new black.' But we want the same things they do -- the right to live, free of discrimination, and share the love of spouse and children. WE need to take the message to them, the way they took it to the white community. We don't need to be yelling at each other in the streets. We simply need to borrow a piece of the black experience and quietly sit down with them and talk to them about who we are. Because if we don't, if we expect them to simply change because we want them to, then we're no better than the oppressors we're all fighting against. I hope I didn't offend anyone, and I think this is a discussion that needs to be continued. This is just my view, and you can take what you want from it. Thanks for letting me rant.

GlindaRed	view my profile
Tuesday, November 11 2008 \| 18:24:43
OMG Cathy
I swear Cathy, this truly made me cry. You are so right on so many counts. I have two cousins that had already come out to the family to much ridicule. It was bad enough in my own household that I'd be compared to my brother the "golden boy". I just wanted to be me...accepted as me...all of my family are now pretty much gone or scattered, and my born again Christian brother has already scorned me for being pagan, and he doesn't even know that I am gay, He's dead to me, because he sold the family home I was living in from under me because he needed the money and as executor of the will from the last surviving homeowner(it was owned three ways between my parents and my aunt) he was able to sell it without my 'signature' to oppose. Its amazing how on the basis of "religion" that we are scorned, yet the Mormon church, whose early members practiced polygamy were scorned and 'banished' for lack of a better term to Utah, had spent $20 millions dollars to scorn us who have been here practically from the beginning of time. I believe in reincarnation. I also believe that as we are "reborn" into the present day life we exist, that we do carry a presence of our previous lives and I believe that it could very well explain that in a previous life, a person may have been a one gender, yet reborn into the OPPOSITE gender, they still have strong remnants of their previous life's gender, and therefore could be why there is homosexuality. I hope that came out clear... I received an email from Gina Glass that she said you gave an incredible speech. It doesn't surprise me. As both a passionate person, and as one who is direct with their feelings and opinion. I can only imagine how powerful ur speech was. I also believe what really carried the speech was u spoke from the heart. I wasn't there, although I wish I was. Sorry if this is long winded...However, it doesn't negate my feelings or opinions. Ur blog on "Is gay the New Black", rightfully and glaringly showed the disparity of the struggle of the african-americans, and those of the gay community. My heart goes out to those who are gay AND of the 'black or Hispanic' heritage. They must feel the "double whammy". YOU inspire me. THANK YOU, Be well, Loving you from CT Patti

SapphicDrivenLyfe	view my profile
Tuesday, November 11 2008 \| 20:44:22
Shadow . . .
"Now people are blaming the black community for the passage of Proposition 8. I say, it's our own fault." This article was not blaming the black community --AT ALL. Equality.

SapphicDrivenLyfe	view my profile
Tuesday, November 11 2008 \| 20:45:59
EQUALITY . . .
I personally don’t feel that the use of the metaphor --whether used a year ago or last week is irrelevant, takes anything away from the black experience. Race is not what is being compared. Gays didn’t protest last week because of race. They protested based on the issue of EQUALITY. This article was so beautifully written and inspired by a conversation Cathy had with a 20 year old friend not quite understanding the use of the metaphor either. Cathy’s friend was 12 years old when Bush took office. That in itself deserves pause because in those 8 years the tide turned in America. It brought fourth legions of persecutors baring their teeth, baring hate, baring injustice, most of all baring judgment all in the name of Christianity. Not that those components haven’t always been there, but this era was different. They not only had an ally, they had arguably the most powerful man of the free world leading their fight. God forbid two people of the same sex proclaim their love for one another on his watch! That hate wasn’t more menacing or ever more prevalent than at the GOP Republican Convention in 2004. It was terrifying to watch! I kept thinking this is the rise of fascism yet again, but this time in America. Our evolution stopped, and as long as we were being told we deserved less –we now had a president that was going to do everything in his power to see that we got less. None of us know the experience of being black unless we are, vice versa with gays. BUT blacks do take away something admirable that Cathy also mentioned and that is the extraordinary history that is passed on from generation to generation. Gays do not have that bridge that gaps the history component of what it means to be gay. We don’t pass it on. That part is rarely discussed, and it needs to be. Cathy you have not missed a beat ---ROCK ON BABE!

SapphicDrivenLyfe	view my profile
Tuesday, November 11 2008 \| 21:14:51
Political times . . .
If anyone translated from Cathy’s article an issue of race, then you have missed the powerful and truly compelling message at its core. She references the black community for its plight towards equality from a historical and factual standpoint with much respect and admiration. I realize this is a hot button of discussion, but it’s not written in the spirit of seeing whom is most oppressed either. Let’s not turn the tables on each other at this juncture. We’re here for one cause, one issue –equal rights. I’m a disc jockey on the weekends. This weekend I spoke out about Proposition 8 on my show. Yesterday I was taken off the schedule because I was “too political.” It’s one of those . . . “We’ll call you when we need you again” kind of things. It needed to be said. I have no regrets. I would do it again. I couldn’t be more proud to be gay right now, and She Wired is such a great forum of discussion. ---Rose---

,
Tuesday, November 11 2008 \| 21:32:46
Reply to Cathy Debuono's Article
As I sit here and read your article,Cathy, which you raise good arguments. I understood exactly what you're talking about and where're you coming from. I certainly have to agree. I'm not 100% comfortable with the title b/c a)Gay Person gets the worst treatment than a black person b) Minorities who are LGBTQI i.e. disabled, womyn, racial and multi-racial/cultured are a minority within a minority. They get treated worse than any group. However, Cathy, I do understand the angle where you are coming from. I'm not sure if I agree with Gays are being treated worse than blacks b/c there gays who are black, gays who are disabled and gays who are a combination of both like me. I am an African-American Lesbian semi-disabled womyn. I have dealt with more ignorance and hate than anyone can encounter in this lifetime. Both from Black straight religious and LGBTQI communities. It upsets me how Black is separate from Gay. Well, what if you're gay and black? How does that combination fit? Where do I fit in all of this protest? Are you protesting for me in having rights as a Black Lesbian like you as a White Lesbian. When you march are you only thinking of the white LGBTQI community or all Lesbians and Gays? Sometimes I get the vibe you are only voicing your white Lesbian and gay voices at the protest. Maybe if I'll join then straight black people can see me and hear me and know that they voted against a "sistah" whose gay. A "sistah" who is not on the "down-low." I lived a lie once and I'm not doing it again. Oh wait " Black straight people think Whites turned me into a Lesbian. Yeah, gay is only in the white race no other." This Black mentality is the reason why African-Americans are dealing with a lot of complex issues. No one is talking to them about the silence of not talking about homosexuality or bisexuality in the community. Do you think if more Black gay and lesbian people come out and join the white LGBTQI people than this separation of gay vs Black will dissipate and just call like it is. Hate against all Gays of all races. Do you think People of Color who are LGBTQI should become activists despite it will be a leap to take knowing the risk of not having a community to back you up b/c people see skin color and racial identities first and not sexual orientation unless revealed? If you come out, you are ostricized by your community which is your support group. The loudest voices of this protest that I see are white Lesbians and Gays b/c they don't have to worry about their white communities exiling them b/c you have a gazillion support groups that cater to you. I'm telling you right now it will take a person of color in the LGBTQI commuinty to break these walls down not only within their racial community but also in the LGBTQI community. This leader or these leaders will be the bridge that connects both sides or all sides. Someone's got to do it. This minority vs minority has got to stop. It's sickening me. Please call it something else like Is Gay Civil Rights Less Equal than Black Civil Rights? I will say yes. For some of us the two the black and the gay is something we can versus nor separate.

SapphicDrivenLyfe	view my profile
Tuesday, November 11 2008 \| 22:17:47
Stand together . . .
Black and gay? When did this become so separatists? Wanda Sykes is an out and proud lesbian. She was mentioned in an earlier post quoting this very thing, that black was the new gay a year ago. Is she allowed to say this because she's black? My God?! When did this become such an issue of race for the reason that Cathy's skin is white, or yours is black or mine is brown? Damn! If we're all gay, it's time to stand together --all of us, all colors since race has become an issue in this, and not rip each other to shreds. Discrimination is discrimination. It knows now color.

SapphicDrivenLyfe	view my profile
Tuesday, November 11 2008 \| 22:18:58
Correction.
Discrimination is discrimination. It knows NO color.

sarah	view my profile
Tuesday, November 11 2008 \| 22:44:18
I am offended
when I hear my racist parents make derogatory remarks about blacks and mexicans, I am offended. When I am in the grocery store and I hear people make disparaging remarks about the mexicans who can't speak english and should just get the hell out of this country and quit taking our jobs, I am offended. When I hear co-workers tell racist jokes about the new President Elect, I am offended. When reading history about the black experience in this country and how incredibly poorly they were treated, as not even so much as human beings I am certainly offended. Why then should I not expect that when I am called names, bashed, forced to live as a second class citizen and denegrated because of whom I choose to love that you should be offended. Claiming that gay is the new black is a way to contexualize the struggle that the GLBT community is experiencing. It is not an effort to trivialize the struggles that you have gone through and continue to go through. When a community that has experienced hate and degradation and they don't speak out when they see it happening, even if you think it is happening to a lessor degree then your own, I in all honesty am offended.

Nomo	view my profile
Wednesday, November 12 2008 \| 14:18:22
Cathy, I re-breathed and re-read. You should, too.
Cathy, I wasn’t “preaching against” anything but the haphazardness of equating the black struggle with the gay struggle. I also explained why doing it is hurtful to us and why it’s not a great idea to say, “Gay is the new Black,” or to even ask if gay is the new black, especially if the goal is to recruit more African American allegiance. (Honey vs. vinegar.) If it’s not a goal, then dismiss the hurt it causes and say it all you want. But you can’t offend blacks, even accidentally, then ask all of us to join your cause, while in the same breath admonishing us for finding that phrase offensive in the first place. That goes for any oppressed group, as Shadow duly noted. Any time you try to equate two things that have differences, you, by necessity, ignore the existence of them and thereby diminish the importance of those differences. It is a rule of language. (I swear there’s even a Latin phrase we use in the legal field for it...) That, Cathy, is what happens. That’s what’s hurtful. That’s why the phrase, “Gay is the new Black” grates our ears and makes our teeth hurt, regardless of how well-intended it was. I am no spokeswoman for my race, but I’m trying to provide you, and anyone else involved in LGBT activism who cares, an insight into this topic that you might not otherwise get without stepping into fire. My teeth started hurting when I read the title of your article and for the first 2/3 of your article for that matter. By the time I reached the ending of your article where the tone changes from a critical, almost angry tone (keeping in mind that this is your response to your black friend) to a gentler tone advocating unity, did my teeth stop hurting, so to speak. It wouldn’t hurt if you re-read it yourself, too, keeping in mind that your first question already caused a toothache in black mouths and that the article is a list of questions addressed to a black person: “Is gay the new Black?” “Do we not get beaten… do we not get tortured… have we not been stalked… have we not been ignored… has any black person ever… has any black person ever… are we not the highest rate of minority suicide… do we not suffer more…” See how that reads? Toothache. You’re equating them, ignoring about 375 years of what my parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, endured. And even making it seem like what they went through, what I go through, is somehow more tolerable than gay discrimination (see the two “has any black person ever” questions). I’m thinking to myself: She’s leaving out a lot that happened to us in 400 years. But I’ll keep reading, ‘cause I like Cathy, even though she went to UofK and not UofL: Then the last two whoppers: “Were black people raised in families that hated them… do black people have to...” By now, I’m hurt, a little taken aback, and thinking: No, Cathy, black people weren’t raised in families that hated them. They were raised in families that hated themselves. They were raised in a country that hated them enough to enslave them, breed them, and sell them. They were raised in a country that caused them to address one another as a racial slur. They were raised in a country that made an entire generation believe that they have no value unless they are rich and famous, and can validate that they are rich by flaunting materialistic icons like jeweled crayon pendants on their necks like buffoons. Where is the Orajel??! Don’t equate them, Cathy. They’re not the same. When you do, you’re effectively ignoring, trivializing their differences. When you ignore their differences, you diminish their existence. When you diminish their existence, you piss off a whole lotta black folk… including Californian black folk who could apparently use a good talking to given their Yes votes. I’m telling you now, those black Yes voters will not listen to you, they will not try to sympathize with you, if the first thing they hear out of your mouth is disrespectful to their history, their struggle, and the second thing that comes out of your mouth is dismissive of their hurt. Honey vs. vinegar. Please don’t hate me for challenging what you’ve said (actually, how you said it), but I really want you to understand. :\ And I really want my people to start supporting yours. -Nomosexual

Amberside	view my profile
Wednesday, November 12 2008 \| 15:22:38
Wow
What on earth is hapening here, i can empathise with some issues people have but its not like the article is being prejudice or offensive. She could have said something like "Gays have it harder than black people" and at that point i would completely see why people would be wanting to get out their pitch forks. As it stands, in my opinion that wasnt said or implied. If someone said to me "You gays dont know the meaning of the word oppression, look at black history to see that" I would want to correct that person and provide them with a list of LGBT issues effecting and oppressing us. Is that a game of one-upmanship? am i being offensive to the black community, no i am simply trying to educate that person as to what similarities exist between the struggles the black community have gone through and what the gay community are currently going through. Ive read a similar topic about the plight of the black community and the plight of the LGBT community in other places, its getting across the pond here too and i am baffled as to why people are A: so surprised and B: so offended. As it stands a 70% of the African American community voted to prevent Californians from having the same civil rights through marriage as they currently have - Fact, the very rights which for centuries the black community also had to fight for. Surely people can expect the racial dichotomy to appear after that, even on the basis of pure irony, one historically oppressed community voting to opress another. Sadly i think this argument will run and run, which is completely 'smoke and mirrors' at the end of the day divide and conquer, i bet the hardcore right wing religious zealots are loving to see 2 communities who have both been victims of oppression fighting amongst themselves, whilst they quietly leave through the back door.

,
Wednesday, November 12 2008 \| 18:22:55
I agree. Stand Together
I agree we all need to stand together in the LGBTQI. Like I previously stated I understand what the meaning and underlying message says in Cathy's article. By the way just b/c another African-American says Gay is the New Black? doesn't mean I have to agree with her either. If Wanda Sykes,who I am a huge.huge,huge fan of, wrote this article. I still would spoke up and disagree with her title. It isn't about Cathy's race,as so much you assumed SDL. I was disagreeing with the title. I want to clear things up. Still a Cathy D fan too!

Reign	view my profile
Thursday, November 13 2008 \| 01:57:53
Cathy Please Understand
Cathy I implore you to please reread Nomo's responses to your blog! She isn't disagreeing with your message of uniting against all hate and bigotry, she is simply asking you to realize that they way you stated your point can be seen as confrontational and disrespectful to African Americans. Especially in the first 30 something points where you compare the hardships of LGBTQ people with that of African Americans. I have read it over and over again. Stepped away, came back read it again. Took a deep breathe and reread it. I understand what you were trying to say, but they way you went about it appeared to trivialize the discrimination faced by African Americans, although I know that was not your intention. The wording and tone of your blog is extremely confrontational to the African American community. In the end you were able to get your point across, but in the beginning it was just a comparison of who has it worse. You quoted Nomo "LBGT surely cannot expect African Americans to push for gay rights" and said why not. But you took that part out of context. Go back and reread that ENTIRE section, and what Nomo was saying was that if you disrespect the history of oppression of African Americans and there by disrespect the people, then you can not expect them to support you. If someone just slapped you across the face you can't exactly expect them to walk down the street with you hand in hand (I am not saying that is what you did, it is just a metaphor for what Nomo said). If you respect African Americans and reach out to them in a positive, cooperative manner they will intern respect and help you. We as a community need to come together to fight hate in all forms. But we will not be able to do that by dividing the community with phrases like "black Americans have their struggle. We have ours ". Separating black people from gay people, when indeed there are many people (ie. me, and Ketina7) who are both. We need to feel that we as much apart of the gay community as our white counterparts. By not acknowledging our presence you marginalizing us even unintentionally. BTW: this is Dee, if you are really interested in understanding more about the black community it terms of gay people give me a call. If you don't have the number any more just shoot me an email and I will send it to you. Hope you all have a ton of fun in Chicago! :o)

DaChickenLady	view my profile
Thursday, November 13 2008 \| 01:58:20
The Heart Rules and Asking the Question Hurts the Heart
Cathy, I’ve enjoyed many of your vlogs, and your article, “Taking to the Streets with Pride to Protest Prop. 8” moved me to tears. I must disagree with your current article, though. No, Gay is not the new Black. [New paragraph] I am not sure what the objectives of your article are. If your objective is a call to action to the LGBT community, an expression of your frustration and other feelings, or an appeal to those who are already sympathetic to our cause, then your article is probably highly effective. If, on the other hand, your article is an answer to your friend or an appeal for unity to African Americans who take exception to comparing the LGBT struggle to the African American struggle, then it is probably anti-productive because the heart rules on this issue, and the tone and approach of your article probably hurts the hearts of many who oppose the comparison. How can you effectively argue for unity when you are simultaneously pointing out the differences? If you’re addressing people whom you know object strongly to comparing the LGBT to the Black community, asking the title question and saying, “No minority who suffers any of the fall out of inequality, no matter what their history, can proclaim that ‘no comparison’ bullshit” probably won’t change any hearts. You lose effectiveness again when your original article contains a long list of comparisons (implied and expressed) and yet you state, in your reply to Nomo, “My list and argument is not that our history is the same. My point is we have our own history, we suffer own our injustices, and we can look to those groups who came before our movement for inspiratin [sic] and support. Not comparison and competition.” [New paragraph] There has been a lot of resistance in many hearts in the African American community to the LGBT civil rights movement because they feel we are equating “us” to “them,” “our” struggle to “their” struggle, and “our” suffering to “their” suffering. Part of the problem with the comparison approach is it simultaneously and naturally brings up differences. Another problem is we can try to imagine and understand someone else's experience, suffering, and etc.; but we can't KNOW. Two different people who experience the same thing are still two separate people, each with a unique experience. I have experienced discrimination because I am Chinese, just as I have experienced discrimination because I am bisexual. Not only do I not know what it is for someone to experience discrimination because he/she is Black or gay, I do not even know what it is for someone else to experience discrimination because he/she is Chinese or bisexual. I can imagine. I can try to understand. I may very well have more insight into their experience than someone who has never experienced discrimination because of his/her color or race; but I can't KNOW. [New paragraph] The heart does not always recognize intentions for what they truly are. As soon as the heart perceives, even wrongly, that you are acting against it, it will act to protect itself. The moment you SEEM to be equating Gay to Black (by asking the question in the title, even if it is metaphor or rhetoric), you’ve lost the fight to win some hearts. The moment you SEEM to be comparing suffering, you lose some more. The moment you SEEM to be engaging in one-upmanship (arguing that “we” suffer some conditions that “they” do/have not), they are offended. IMO, the most effective point in your article (when appealing to those who oppose the comparisons to begin with) is that we – LGBT or not, Black or not – are all just human. As such, we are all entitled to human rights. [New paragraph] I can’t speak for the LGBT community. I can and will say this for myself: I am a human being and I am entitled to human rights – the same rights that you, as another human being, are entitled to. It was/is wrong when your human rights were/are violated, disrespected, dismissed, and denied, but you fought and you continue to fight for your rights, not as a Black person, but as a person, period. It was/is wrong when my human rights were/are violated, disrespected, dismissed, and denied, but I fought and I will keep fighting for my rights. I ask you to join me in the fight for human rights, not just for me, but for everyone.

Kate	view my profile
Thursday, November 13 2008 \| 09:03:55
Context
I've taken several deep breaths re-read the original article and the various responses. I'm confused at the anger directed toward Cathy for asking what I think is a pertinent question. Maybe I just don't understand the black experience enough to discern any kind of slight towards them or their history. I'm trying to understand, just like I'm trying to understand why 70% of black people voted yes on prop 8 because the gay community didn't provide enough outreach. In my lifetime when I have seen injustice and inequality, I have stood against it, nobody had to provide any outreach to me. So, in all honesty I really am trying to understand why this is such divisive issue. I don't want to offend anyone, or to trivialize anyone else's life experience. I just want to better understand my fellow human beings and have them understand me better. Maybe I think that's what is missing in this conversation, the accusation that we are trivializing someone's experience, but feeling that they are and have in essence ignored ours.

SapphicDrivenLyfe	view my profile
Thursday, November 13 2008 \| 11:46:23
Kate . . .
Kate --well said. I'm with you. Cathy's article is incredibly moving, but to infuse anger? It doesn't happen. I've re-read several times, too. I've asked others to read it. Not one person has walked away saying, "Wow!", or "Insightful", or just plain been brought to tears.

SapphicDrivenLyfe	view my profile
Thursday, November 13 2008 \| 11:54:55
Peace . . .
With the exception of this discussion, I have not found one person that has been in the least offended with the reference. The first time I read it I was brought to tears. We've been going back and fourth. Semantics aside . . . please. Peace.

Leah	view my profile
Thursday, November 13 2008 \| 13:33:02
some of you missed cathy's point
I think it's rather clear that Cathy's list wasn't a comparison to say they are the "same", but just the opposite. It was a list that called out how every minority group has their own crosses to bear, and shouldn't we all support the bottom line. As the bottom line of her article states. "I have nothing but respect for our fellow oppressed minority groups -- but we need to stand as one, with each other and drop the bullshit competition for the right to carry the biggest cross. I don't want it. And anyone who needs to preach it is holding back the entire human race. So once again, is Gay the new Black? Or can we all just be human now..." Doesn't she sort of answer the proposed question by saying, gay, black, purple or straight.... being human is the point.

Leah	view my profile
Thursday, November 13 2008 \| 13:36:18
You've missed Cathy's point...
I think it's rather clear that Cathy's list wasn't a comparison to say they are the "same", but just the opposite. It was a list that called out how every minority group has their own crosses to bear, and shouldn't we all support the bottom line. As the bottom line of her article states. "I have nothing but respect for our fellow oppressed minority groups -- but we need to stand as one, with each other and drop the bullshit competition for the right to carry the biggest cross. I don't want it. And anyone who needs to preach it is holding back the entire human race. So once again, is Gay the new Black? Or can we all just be human now..." Doesn't she sort of answer the proposed question by saying, gay, black, purple or straight.... being human is the point. I have nothing but respect for our fellow oppressed minority groups -- but we need to stand as one, with each other and drop the bullshit competition for the right to carry the biggest cross. I don't want it. And anyone who needs to preach it is holding back the entire human race. So once again, is Gay the new Black? Or can we all just be human now...

DaChickenLady	view my profile
Thursday, November 13 2008 \| 14:11:39
Consider the Audience
For a message to be effective, it is important to consider who the intended audience is, including any known sensitivities and beliefs. What good are the best and most noble intentions and the right ideas when they are presented in a manner that makes the very people whom you wish to reach/persuade want to stop listening?

Leah	view my profile
Thursday, November 13 2008 \| 14:56:48
this is a gay website
dachickenlady, so it would seem she knows she's speaking to us. What people do you think she "wishes to reach/persuade"? She's talking to a gay audience. As far as her manner, I really don't see anything but fearless thought provoking statements. And the only thing she appears to be "persuading" is the idea that WE ALL STAND TOGETHER and to STOP comparing. I don't get the high horse, how can anyone not see what she is actually saying??

DaChickenLady	view my profile
Thursday, November 13 2008 \| 15:13:19
No High Horse
As long as people only see one side, and especially when they start attacking people who don't agree with everything they say, things are not going to move forward. Yes, this is a gay website, but it welcomes not just gay people. More importantly, please don't forget that there are people who are both Black and gay. Is Cathy's article only speak to "us"? I don't know. That was why I raised the question. Cathy's article began with: "Cathy compared the current fight for gay rights to the civil rights movement of the 60's and was told by her 20-year-old friend that we, as gays, had no business comparing our struggle to that of African Americans. This was her reply:"

cynamingyrl	view my profile
Thursday, November 13 2008 \| 15:52:23
Right On Cathy
dachickenlady, I completely agree with you about considering the audience when you have a message to send. That IS important in order for a message to come across effectively. Cathy is writing to an electrified group of gay womyn here. Our pressure cooker has just blown it's lid. We are roiling out into the streets to stand together in this, all of our, fight for equality. That does not diminish from the fight of ANY minority. We are all brothers and sisters here in the land of the second class citizen. I think that Cathy made me cringe about 15 times reading this article because it is TRUE. She is not attacking anyone in the black community, and I don't think that she is wrong in the points she made, taking in the context of the article and of the conversation she had. We DO have our unique crosses to bear in this struggle for equality, and that is a fact. But it is the fight itself where we are all the same.

Reign	view my profile
Thursday, November 13 2008 \| 16:38:58
Hmm
It appears that some of people are not understanding the different perspectives other people are expressing about this article. Some have already made up their minds, and read each comment trying to find a way to debunk the arguments of others. Well I just ask that if you are not willing to read this comment with an open mind and a willingness to possibly understand, then stop reading now, because it would be a waste of your time ( I say that respectively and understanding that it may come off more harsh than my intentions). Just because something is not meant to be offensive, or has not offended you personally does not mean it may not be offensive to others. If everyone was to reread the comments, they would realize that almost everyone is agreeing that they get Cathy's message for the most part. She wants to unite the gay community to fight against discrimination, and to fight for equal rights. At the end it seems like she wants us to stop comparing (although the whole beginning of the article is nothing but comparisons) burdens each groups bares and just wants us to stand together. However her message was smeared by the way she went about explaining it. Reread the article and you will see that she repeatedly separates Black people from Gay people. When there are indeed Black Gay people. She left that group completely out of her article, making it seem that you are either black or gay not both. This was not her intention I know that, but that is indeed what she wrote. She also compares the hardships of both groups head to head. Although unintentional this breeds an atmosphere of contention and competition (now stay calm ladies I don't think that was what she intended). Comparison is not needed. Both groups have faced bigotry and hate. There is no need to list the things that each group has been there and say we have been through this, have you? That just calls for comparison and judgement when it is not needed. AGAIN I understand overall what Cathy is trying to say. However I can't agree with how she went about saying it. Others may disagree with my opinion, but that is probably because you have don't (and aren't trying to) understand my perspective. I have shown this article to many people. Black, White, Indian, Gay and Straight, and the first thing most people do is stop reading half way through and ask why Cathy is even comparing the two? (There should be no comparison). I urge them to read the entire article and then ask for their opinions. Most have gotten her message of a call to arms, but again they don't agree with how she went about doing it. Comparison causes competition, and this is not a competition. So why compare? The fight for equal rights of the gay community does not need to be qualified by comparison. The gay community's hardships and struggles are legitimate and don't need to be compared to anything. If the people reading this (my comment) aren't even willing to consider that the language of the article may be even slightly offensive to someone outside of their own particle group, then we as a community have a lot farther to go than I ever imagined when it comes to unification. How can we unite, when so many are just not willing to understand the perspective of others? The gay community is very diverse, and the members need to work on understanding the feelings of all members if we are going to come together and fight united as one.

Reign	view my profile
Thursday, November 13 2008 \| 16:41:53
BTW
How the heck do I get some paragraph separation in my comments? I have tried many things, but it always pops up as just one long paragraph.

Amberside	view my profile
Thursday, November 13 2008 \| 16:55:07
Reign
For the gaps in paragraphs and spaces etc you type the following: Put the second bracket directly after the 'br' i only put a space so you could see it. You put it wherever you would press 'Enter' on your keyboard :) If you want a double space just put two of them together Hope that helps :)

Amberside	view my profile
Thursday, November 13 2008 \| 16:57:12
Damn it!
lol, I put an extra space so it wouldnt dissapear, obviously didnt work!, ok ill do it differentely < br > Now put them together like a html sandwhich and it will create a space lol

Reign	view my profile
Thursday, November 13 2008 \| 18:47:49
Thanks
Thanks Amberside..it is difficult to read those loooonnng paragraphs

DaChickenLady	view my profile
Thursday, November 13 2008 \| 19:50:11
Giving Up
Cynamingrl, My previous point about attacking was not in reference to Cathy. I am tired and don’t have the time or energy to keep trying to get others to understand my points. I also see no point in devoting more resources to this discussion when my efforts are obviously ineffective and I can’t think of how I can make my points any clearer than I have or better than Nomo, Shadow, Ketina7, and Reign have. I wish them good luck if they decide to stay in this discussion. I am bowing out.

sarah	view my profile
Thursday, November 13 2008 \| 20:03:49
we are trying to understand
speaking for myself, I really want to understand what has your backs up so much. You all have had some excellent and valid points, as did Cathy and that's what this is all about. This is important discourse and all the input we can get is important. Again speaking for myself I'm not angry or trying to be disagreeable, I just want to learn something I didn't previously know. I think it would be a shame if you left the conversation.

JasmeenKru	view my profile
Friday, November 14 2008 \| 02:15:31
Great article
Keep up the good work. I've read your article once everyday its been up. :D.

jodi	view my profile
Friday, November 14 2008 \| 05:44:23
It's all in the interpretation
I understand that some of you read the article and gleaned something from it that I did not. I respect your views and your response on the subject. We all come from a different place in the world and that shadows much of what we feel and how we feel it. The only recourse is to understand that and to respect it. In fact I do believe that Cathy exposed an issue that needed to be discussed, I'm sure she didn't mean to disparage anyone's beliefs, but I do think she meant to challenge people and to get them to think and to talk. You have to tear the scab off sometimes.....

Nomo	view my profile
Friday, November 14 2008 \| 16:51:46
We didn't miss the point.
Well, despite saying in my previous posts that I know Cathy wasn’t trying to be divisive or intending to be offensive in her article and despite agreeing with her call to unity, it appears that the mantra of some on this thread is still: “Cathy was trying to say we are all human. Why are you offended? Cuz my friends and I weren’t offended when we read it” FIRST: Let’s not get it twisted: Cathy’s article didn’t “offend” me. But, save the last few sentences on calling for unity, reading the article did make me cringe a little. It also disappointed me a little because I didn’t expect Cathy to write an article that comes off so critically to African Americans—not like I know her or anything. SECOND: Again, I am fully aware that the point Cathy wanted readers to take from her article is that human rights are human rights and that all groups, oppressed or otherwise, should unite for that common goal. Again, agreed! (Although I would have put that at the top, not the bottom of the article) The problem is: that’s not all Cathy said. She asked, “Is gay the new black?” Scroll up and read the title. That’s really what it says: “CATHY DEBUONO ASKS, ‘IS GAY THE NEW BLACK?’” It’s even in the first and last paragraph. The introduction of the article even goes on to provide context for our discussion: “Cathy compared the current fight for gay rights to the civil rights movement of the 60's and was told by her 20-year-old friend that we, as gays, had no business comparing our struggle to that of African Americans. This was her reply[.]” Then, the body of her article goes on to list, in a critical voice, questions that start with phrases like: “Did black people ever… Was being black ever… Are we not more… etc etc.” Read my second post. I, as an African American, answered Cathy’s question with a long-winded “No,” and took the liberty to explain that comparing the struggles is cool, but that equating the two struggles—i.e. the phrase “Gay is the new Black”—is hurtful to African Americans. I also suggested that LGBT activists not use that phrase if it wants more African American allegiance, because no matter how well-intentioned that phrase may or may not be, it pisses African Americans off. (Thx Reign and Ketina for adding black lesbian voices. I imagine that phrase is most hurtful to you, as it also innately suggests that no one is gay and Black.) THIRD: After spending two posts to not only inform Cathy that the phrase “Gay is the new Black” is hurtful to African Americans, AND explaining WHY it is hurtful to African Americans, I’m still reading posts that are dismissive—posts that suggest that unless the poster herself or her friends are offended by the phrase or by equating the two struggles, then there must not be a legitimate reason for African Americans to be offended. “It’s not like the article is being prejudice…,” “smoke and mirrors,” “maybe I just don't understand the black experience enough…,” “” etc etc. I’m gonna take a Dr. Phil moment and share something I learned in divorce mediation training: The worst and most least-productive thing you can do is refuse to accept that the other person feels hurt or angry. You may dispute the details surrounding it, but the indisputable fact is that the person is hurt or angry. You cannot “disagree” that the person is hurt or angry. So, to be frank, you really can’t “disagree” that the phrase “Gay is the new Black” is hurtful to African Americans. It is. I even bothered to explain, albeit unnecessarily, WHY it is hurtful. We do not need to legitimize our hurt or convince anyone that it is hurtful for it to, in fact, to be hurtful. It is hurtful. There’s nothing to be debated about that. BTW, thx Reign/Dee re: your first post. (btw Good to see you on here!) I didn't want to point out in my 2nd response to Cathy that she left out the operative half of my sentence when she quoted me as saying African Americans won't join the gay rights struggle b/c I wanted to stay focused on the meat of the issue. And thx Amberside for the paragraph break tip! Didn't know html worked on here. Last "btw": DaChickenLady... girrrrl you better pull out your inner Obama (aka your "Bam Bam") and never shut your mouth just because you feel like you're talking to/hitting a brick wall. Imagine if Barack had done that...

JasmeenKru	view my profile
Friday, November 14 2008 \| 17:24:53
Passion
I love the passion in the replies to Cathy's article. Spent quite a while reading the responses. as for the slogan gay is the new black, i don't believe it is being said to undermine the african american experience in america but more so said to say.. pay attention folks, this stuff is serious and we all that have any sort of humanity need to back the same way we supported MLK. Cool?

JasmeenKru	view my profile
Friday, November 14 2008 \| 17:31:27
To add further
I won't be saying Gay is the new black since it can come across so hurtful to others. People who do find it offensive just think of it as a sort of strategy to bring what the gay community is going thru as prospective. Please don't be offended. I am more than sure the lbgt community would never turn their back on the african american community if our help was ever needed. I don't live in the U.S so I don't truly understand the oppression against african americans, i see it as I see the sort of racism in canada and I doubt its nearly as harsh as what has taken place in the american history. But lets be honest, there is quite a bit of hate against gays even more so than anything but its hard to see cuz ppl can be closted out of convenience. Peace be with you. Later.

MaggietheCat	view my profile
Friday, November 14 2008 \| 17:41:20
Unfortunately...
I think we will hear more gay is the new black...and just to point out, I think Cathy posed it as a question. That is a bit different. Anyway, Wanda Sykes said it ages ago and continues to do so. I think for those who find it offensive, it's not going away.

sarah	view my profile
Friday, November 14 2008 \| 18:01:06
OK
I apologize if any of my comments were perceived as "dismissive". I also understand that you are "hurt" by the statement that Gay is the New Black. I accept that you are pained by that expression. My problem here is that the dismissiveness and the hurtfulness seem to be reciprocal. Should the gay community not be "hurt" by the fact that despite their broad support of civil rights and support of African Americans in obtaining those equalities, the African American community in California in a large majority decided not to support a opressed minority. In doing so questioned if that minority is "oppressed" enough and blamed the minority because they didn't provide enough outreach and therefore assisted in the taking away of their own rights. So everyone is hurt and feels dismissed and trivialized and where does that leave us. That's a question I would like answered, it's not rheatorical. Because frankly, we better get our shit together and stop arguing about words and start fighting like hell for all of our rights.

Rhea	view my profile
Friday, November 14 2008 \| 20:05:37
Thanks Cathy :)
I love the article. I think that it really helped contexualise the issues that we're dealing with right now in the fight for civil rights for those within the lgbt community.

lolita	view my profile
Friday, November 14 2008 \| 21:07:54
Not really, sorry.
As a white lesbian I get what Cathy is TRYING to say but ultimately it just feels like a poorly written off base high school essay. Historically speaking, homosexuality was not always demonized, look to ancient Greece. Also, while far from ideal, homosexuals have had the ability to mask their differences, to hide behind curtains while waiting for society to adjust to the increased visibility of the LGBTQ community. It took me years to reveal myself as a homosexual. Until then I was able to pass through society undetected and reap all the benefits of a society run by old white men. Blacks have never had the benefit of being able to hide their identity, dodge appearance based judgments at any point during their struggle. As an opressed people the gay community may be able to deeply empathize with the civil rights movement, and glean what is needed for an effective fight, but we will never truly know what it is to be a black in America and I think its insulting to make a comparison.

lolita	view my profile
Friday, November 14 2008 \| 21:10:02
edit
Perhaps it is not insulting to make the comparison as I don't think it was mean spirited. More likely it is naive? Ignorant? Something like that.

JrBetty	view my profile
Friday, November 14 2008 \| 22:49:27
Common Ground
I get that it is offensive to some to use the phrase "Gay is the new black" and because of your views expressed here, out of respect, I will not use the phrase. It seems that some also find it offensive to draw parallels between the experiences . Some find it offensive to even draw a distinction that there are indeed two groups, as if that negates any cross over. But how are we supposed to find the common ground, the shared experience, the stuff we can relate to? Cathy was talking about the struggle the African American community had for equal rights erupting in the 60's to what is happening now and the similarities as well as the differences in their struggles. No one truly understands another's struggle. We can only strive to find the common ground. I think Cathy did a good job of pointing out the similarities as well as some differences and in the end calls for us all to TRY to understand each other and understand that , ultimately, we are all HUMAN. Please refrain from personal attacks and insults. Most of this conversation, while heated and passionate, has been respectful. Please don't let it go down that road of name calling. I am enjoying the debate and would hate to see it ruined. I feel like I am learning a lot here from everyone's different view points. This conversation is challenging and insightful. There is an expression that you should never discuss Politics, Race or Religion. The conversations coming to the surface now are about all of these things and we need to be aware of the high tensions and deep histories and intense feelings surrounding these issues and use this forum to understand each other better and grow stronger as individuals and as a community.

DaChickenLady	view my profile
Friday, November 14 2008 \| 23:08:03
A Little Bit of Civility and Consideration Goes a Long Way
JrBetty wrote: "Please refrain from personal attacks and insults. Most of this conversation, while heated and passionate, has been respectful. Please don't let it go down that road of name calling. I am enjoying the debate and would hate to see it ruined. I feel like I am learning a lot here from everyone's different view points. This conversation is challenging and insightful." I can't agree more. It accomplishes nothing to insult or attack others and just makes an already difficult discussion more difficult. Let's stick to discussing the issues. I think (and hope) we all want the same end result. Even if you disagree with Cathy's article or object to some of what she wrote or the way she wrote it, there's no good reason to use such hurtful and insulting language against her. She doesn't deserve such scorn and disrespect. At the risk of sounding trite, let's not eat our own.

boogusOne	view my profile
Saturday, November 15 2008 \| 00:13:20
Electoral Projections Done Right
I've read all your passionate comments regarding Cathy's article. I understand her point. I also understand what Nomo is staying. I think it would be interesting to read the article at the following link, because it gives a bit of information explaining the breakdown of the vote regarding Prop. 8. I know the discussion is not about the vote, but someone mentioned that 70% of the African Americans voted was for Prop. 8 and I thought this an interesting article explaining the vote. Link : http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/prop-8 -myths.html

KuriosGirl	view my profile
Saturday, November 15 2008 \| 17:12:52
Perfect
This article was brilliant to an extent. There is no way this could have been written without an attempt to get people a little angry. What do people do when they get angry? Do they do something about it? Do they talk about it? Maybe they just think about it. If you can take everything that pisses you off about the message here and even for that brief momment and think about the other side of the argument to defend your case better, you may have accidently just realized something. < br > It was in fact proposed as a question. Was there not supposed to be someone out there to say Hell No? I just happen to work with a very diverse group of people and much like on here the majority of people that were not of African American decent were like "thats a really good point, interesting, I can see how they feel that way" whereas my friends of African American decent were able to see the point but not without getting angry first. < br > If there has been anything I have learned in dealing with these situations its that even if you so much as use a word such as "colored" it sort of takes them back to that time and the memmories are there and the feelings(anger, hurt, belittled) are strong. No one likes to hear I feel your pain when you are not that person. How can you possibly feel what I feel?(alot of people would think) < br > I just hope that people dont turn their back on what they believe in for the sake of an argument. These kind of actions, slogans, articles, posters and protests will be said. It will happen because people want to fight for their rights and believe in something before learning about how others feel about what they are saying first. And I support those people too because at least they are trying to get heard and believe in something. Hopefully, even if one of those people stumble accross this page and actually pays attention to the message and how others feel about it they might incidently learn something about civil rights in general. < br > Life is a lesson and we should all be so lucky to learn from our history. As a veteran and for who I am today "I dont fight and didnt fight for some ones rights, I fought for everybody's rights" There is no second class citizens in my world and as long as we go about this the right way then no one should ever feel that way. There is always going to be ignorance and theres always going to be people opinions that you cant change. There is no doubt in my mind that eventually there there will be another chance to make gay marriage legal again in California at least and who knows maybe the vote wont be held during an election and only people who really car about the issue will be voting on it.

JrBetty	view my profile
Saturday, November 15 2008 \| 17:23:25
To Separate paragraphs
Kurios girl. You have the right idea but you have to put these symbols together with no spaces. < br > or < p > I have to put the spaces here or it will look like code to the computer and not show up.

KuriosGirl	view my profile
Saturday, November 15 2008 \| 19:25:21
JrBetty
Thanks for the correction, did it work?

DaChickenLady	view my profile
Saturday, November 15 2008 \| 21:24:47
Wanda Sykes Just Came Out
Much love and respect for Wanda and hope this helps change some hearts in the African American community.

DaChickenLady	view my profile
Saturday, November 15 2008 \| 21:29:31
As Well as hearts in general
Sorry. Posted before I was done. Wanda is such a funny, likable, and articulate lady. Sure hope people see her as yet another example of us just wanting to live and love with the dignity, respect, and stability everyone deserves.

Jenny	view my profile
Saturday, November 15 2008 \| 23:13:13
Good for Wanda
I love Wanda, she is one of the funniest comedians around. She can only add some truthful hilarity to this whole discussion.

justdawn	view my profile
Saturday, November 22 2008 \| 00:12:33
Keep Trying.
I hate to say it but the title of the article, no matter how well meaning, instantly turned me off. Black is and always will be the new, current, and old black. Whether the slight be real or perceived, I am simply saying the intent of the message gets lost if the audience no longer is open. The rest of my post is not directed at Cathy but at how the passing of Prop 8 has been handled by the gay community. I think everyone should be catching the heat equally is all. We all have horse blinders on when we attempt to deal with the experiences of another group. There is no way we can ever fully comprehend everything; only what is presented directly in front of us. What was presented to me over the last week or so, not just on shewired (see: No More Mrs. Nice Gay) but the blogosphere in general, is the gay struggle specifically for blacks as if we masterminded the 'Vote Yes' campaign or worse yet were just too ignorant to vote no. I don't intend this to be a blanket statement but in my experience the quickest way to turn off black, and generally any oppressed minority group, and make us intellectually shut down is by making comparisons. It leads to emotional barriers being thrown up (i.e. 'You don't know me'), You own your reality and I will own mine. You have to appeal peoples heart not their intellect if you want their support. Intellectually this looks like a simple list of how the civil struggles are the same but to my emotions it reads as: "Your struggle is over black people and now you've teamed up the oppressors." I truly know and feel it is not what Cathy meant but I'll be damned if that feeling of possibility doesn't seep up after reading a weeks worth of angry gays billing black people as the overwhelming reason they cannot marry. I don't live there and I didn't vote on Prop 8 but I would of voted no and encouraged everyone I know to do the same. No one should ever have the right to judge how people love but the majority of people that took away all those couples beautiful marriages were White and Hispanic. Where is a pie chart when you need it? Of 100% of the Cali voters 10% were black. 70% of the 10% voted Yes and 30% voted No. So this 7% of voting Californians have tipped over the boiling pot of water that is civil rights? The same 3% that did not get put in any commercials about voting No. Black people will help their own but where were the images of black gays? It's all our fault how about we own that and move on from black and white issues. DaChickenLady and Nomo thanks for you lovely posts. I agree.

Nomo	view my profile
Tuesday, November 25 2008 \| 16:18:57
Was that photo always there??
Awkward.

kreigen	view my profile
Friday, November 28 2008 \| 16:19:05
Latecomer to the debate
I must say I initially side-stepped this article because I wasn't entirely comfortable with the title. However after I saw it was going to be brought up on the next WYP I felt I should come and see what everyone else had made of it. I have read through the comments and the article (the article several times) and I do not see any ill-intention or deliberate offence (and would not, for a second, ever imagine there was any) from anyone. I believe the wording of the article is what has frustrated some of the members. I am not going to unecessarily retread over what has previously been said, only to say that, yes, I do agree that as minority groups we should stop seeing ourselves as seperate entities (especially as there are many people who are part of more than one of these groups) and seek solidarity in liberty and the pursuit of civil rights. However phrases such as "Gay is the new Black" are not, in my opinion, the way to suceed in this process, because it will always drive away more people than it will recruit. I respect that intention was not a comparison of the two VERY different struggles faced by the two groups, but this is the effect that the statement will ultimately illicit, intended or not. As a previous student of history (with a particular interest in the holocaust) I thought it may require a little explanation as to why some people may believe gay people are 'ignored' or "never talked about" in the history of the holocaust (a point Cathy quite validy raised in the article). On the contrary, most of the studying I did on the topic did have the inclusion and mention of the opression of homosexual individuals during the Nazi period, including museum exhibits (I speak here from the UK - I cannot speak from the perspective of other countries). A terrible amount of opression and suffering occured in that period, and numerous societal groups were targetted that did not fit the 'ideal'. The disabled, communist sympathisers, gay people, political opponents, gypsies, and different racial groups all suffered immensely as well, along with many others. However the Jewish suffering was on such an unparralled scale that it warrants special mention and often takes the forefront of the history. The tragedy of a society's complete transformation against them, from political thought right down to culture and media is such an almost uncomprehendable and disturbing trend that it is a major defining factor in a Nation's history. The sheer number of the deceased (that we are aware of) from the period and the mobilisation of ordinary citizens in the process of oppression is such a standout event that it shapes the perception of the period and subsequently, mainsteam history and research into the event, and even now, 60 years on, the stigma and taboo attached to it is still very much evident. It is by the same sort of token (though, not exactly) that mainsteam history of the war focusses on the main players: England, France, Russia, USA, Germany, Italy and Japan, when there were many other countries involved. This is not an aimed criticism at the article nor am I in any way, shape or form implying that any sort of comparison has been made (as I know full well it has not and would not be) between the suffering experienced by different groups in this event. I am merely offering an explanation (or at least, my explanation) as to why often it appears that gay people may appear to be 'left out', so to speak, of the history (which I personally believe they are not), for anyone who is interested. Feel free to challenge me on the issue, I am open to debate :) Back off the tagent I hope that I have added something of worth to this debate. I would just like to add that I find your efforts for the gay community inspiring and commendable (especially the recent videos from the gay rallies) and I am pleased you have appeared to have found your true calling in political action. Keep up the good fight :) and thank you for your efforts so far.

Reign	view my profile
Saturday, November 29 2008 \| 11:58:49
Nomo
To my recollection the picture was not always apart of the article.

sarah	view my profile
Sunday, November 30 2008 \| 20:38:51
Continued conversation
I came back to read your article and to read the responses. I've also read many a newspaper editorial and article about the same subject. I understand that you were not coming from a place of disrespect to the AA community, but rather from a place of admiration for the way that they have overcome the oppression they have suffered. That being said, there are still some individuals out there who's opinion is total opposite of mine. I have been enlightened by those opinions and I'd like to think I understand where their opinion comes from a little better and I guess the bottom line for me is that understanding and cohesiveness are what matter the most in this fight. I look forward to hearing your continued thoughts on the subject, it's been a very educational discourse I hope that it remains respectful on all sides.

animalcracker	view my profile
Friday, March 6 2009 \| 23:14:59
Is gay the new black?
No. Gays have unique struggles but the question and idea is totally insane. Telling people you are gay is most often a choice. A person has a CHOICE, in being out, or at least admitting to others that yes it's true. A black person has no choice in telling perspective employerers if they are black . A black person doesn't go into work and say to themself, "mabey I'll tell them I'm black". It doesn't work that way. It's in your face I'm black. There is no CHOICE. . And like "National Coming Out Day", that one day of the year many people perhaps admit to a few people, "I'm Gay", a CHOICE one makes.. There is no "National Coming Out Day" for African Americans to perhaps tell a few people, "I'm Black". I can't help but wonder what those two overly happy women carrying the "gay is the new black" sign, were smoking before the march started.